Hi Echo, the gospel

[sanctification]

Hi William, nice...

Echo, I should apologize for the sweeping categorizing I've done. I don't think that's helpful either, so... let me come back and ask a more specific question about the gospel (what it is at minimum?). Perhaps you already have an idea of what scripture says is the minimum necessary to know about the truth, in order to be saved?

[Echo]

No apology needed. I just thought we should take the conversation more slowly.

Minimum needed to know?

1) We must be perfect to enter heaven
2) We are not perfect and therefore don't qualify to enter heaven
3) each sin we commit deserves only God's wrath both now and in eternity
4) Jesus suffered the wrath and punishment of God that we deserve, in our place.
5) Jesus forgave us for all our sins
6) he clothed us in his righteousness thus making us perfect forever.
7) believe it

[sanctification]

Hi Echo, thanks for replying. Sweet list.

Can you back it up with scripture that we *have* to know each of these (and how deeply we must know them) in order to *know* we have been saved.

I want to answer the question too. What must the lost person believe in order to have eternal life?

1) They must believe in Jesus Christ who freely gives the gift of eternal life.

It's Jesus' very promise and assurance, not my idea. Thoughts?

[sanctification]

According to The History of the Church, Vol. 1, Ch. 1:9-19, Joseph Smith's testimony is:

9 My mind at times was greatly excited, the cry and tumult were so great and incessant. The Presbyterians were most decided against the Baptists and Methodists, and used all the powers of both reason and sophistry to prove their errors, or, at least, to make the people think they were in error. On the other hand, the Baptists and Methodists in their turn were equally zealous in endeavoring to establish their own tenets and disprove all others.
10 In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be aright, which is it, and how shall I know it?
11 While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of aJames, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack bwisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
12 Never did any passage of ascripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed bwisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects cunderstood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.
13 At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in adarkness and confusion, or else I must do as James directs, that is, ask of God. I at length came to the determination to “ask of God,” concluding that if he gave wisdom to them that lacked wisdom, and would bgive liberally, and not upbraid, I might venture.
14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the awoods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a bbeautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to cpray dvocally.
15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was aseized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick bdarkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.
16 But, exerting all my powers to acall upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into bdespair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of clight exactly over my head, above the brightness of the dsun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself adelivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I bsaw two cPersonages, whose brightness and dglory defy all description, estanding above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My fBeloved gSon. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to ainquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all awrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those bprofessors were all ccorrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their ehearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the fcommandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the gpower thereof.”

The Body of Christ failed to exemplify the unity God called us to and the consequence of our failure is many people being unable to believe in Jesus like they might. I want to admit failure because it was, it is. John 17:23 was His command to his disciples.

I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

I think our gospel, the idea of what we think it is in its simplicity or complexity has great bearing on our demonstration of Christ in us to the world. This is why I brought up this conversation on the gospel. I appreciate your response Echo, very much.

[Echo]

Hi Echo, thanks for replying. Sweet list.

Can you back it up with scripture that we *have* to know each of these (and how deeply we must know them) in order to *know* we have been saved.

1) We must be perfect to enter heaven (Romans 3:19-20)
2) We are not perfect and therefore don't qualify to enter heaven (Romans 3:19-20)
3) each sin we commit deserves only God's wrath both now and in eternity (Romans 3:19-20)
4) Jesus suffered the wrath and punishment of God that we deserve, in our place. (romans 3:25)
5) Jesus forgave us for all our sins (romans 3:25)
6) he clothed us in his righteousness thus making us perfect forever.(romans 3:21-24)
7) believe it (romans 3:26)

I want to answer the question too. What must the lost person believe in order to have eternal life?

1) They must believe in Jesus Christ who freely gives the gift of eternal life.

It's Jesus' very promise and assurance, not my idea. Thoughts?

To be honest with you and to tell you this for your good...I believe you are on an ever increasing road to apostacy. Your former beliefs were much more orthodox than your present beliefs even though your former beliefs weren't all together orthodox. You are scaring me Sanc.

First, nobody will believe in Jesus until they first stop believing in themselves. People who believe in themselves are those who think that if they do their best, they will gain eternal life. They are also those who think that God forgives sins if they first overcome those sins.
People who believe in themselves "feel" they are spiritually healthy when in reality, they are spiritually sick. Those who think they are "healthy" aren't seeking a cure and won't take the cure.

Your also overlooking "repentance" Isaiah 30:15 "In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it"

What about the reason Jesus had to suffer and die? He suffered and died as our subsitute. We deserved that suffering and death. He suffered in our place! He took the wrath of God for us!

What about forgiveness of sins? What about Christ's righteousness credited to us?

A person has to know who Jesus is and what he has done in order to believe in him.

[Echo]

According to The History of the Church, Vol. 1, Ch. 1:9-19, Joseph Smith's testimony is:

9 My mind at times was greatly excited, the cry and tumult were so great and incessant. The Presbyterians were most decided against the Baptists and Methodists, and used all the powers of both reason and sophistry to prove their errors, or, at least, to make the people think they were in error. On the other hand, the Baptists and Methodists in their turn were equally zealous in endeavoring to establish their own tenets and disprove all others.
10 In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be aright, which is it, and how shall I know it?
11 While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of aJames, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack bwisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
12 Never did any passage of ascripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed bwisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects cunderstood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.
13 At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in adarkness and confusion, or else I must do as James directs, that is, ask of God. I at length came to the determination to “ask of God,” concluding that if he gave wisdom to them that lacked wisdom, and would bgive liberally, and not upbraid, I might venture.
14 So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the awoods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a bbeautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to cpray dvocally.
15 After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, having looked around me, and finding myself alone, I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was aseized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick bdarkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.
16 But, exerting all my powers to acall upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into bdespair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of clight exactly over my head, above the brightness of the dsun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself adelivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I bsaw two cPersonages, whose brightness and dglory defy all description, estanding above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My fBeloved gSon. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to ainquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all awrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those bprofessors were all ccorrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their ehearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the fcommandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the gpower thereof.”

The Body of Christ failed to exemplify the unity God called us to and the consequence of our failure is many people being unable to believe in Jesus like they might. I want to admit failure because it was, it is. John 17:23 was His command to his disciples.

I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

I think our gospel, the idea of what we think it is in its simplicity or complexity has great bearing on our demonstration of Christ in us to the world. This is why I brought up this conversation on the gospel. I appreciate your response Echo, very much.

I agree with Joseph Smith's statement: "and used all the powers of both reason and sophistry to prove their errors, or, at least, to make the people think they were in error."

Human reason is not "Master" over God's word, it is "subject" to God's word. Many denominations use human reason to decide what the scripture is saying. It is these same people, who reason that we have free will in conversion.
I can also sympathize with Joseph Smith's dilemna of wondering who is right because at one time I felt exactly as Joseph Smith did. When I was an infant in the faith.

Eph 4:14 "Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming."

What the body of Christ failed to do was to examine every teaching in light of scripture and to follow truth at all costs. We can't and shouldn't claim unity as much of christianity is doing today.
The unity claimed today is but a deceptive appearance of unity which makes deception as of more importance than truth.

[sanctification]

Hi Echo, I really respect your upfront and honest opinion, that is worth so much.

You said

To be honest with you and to tell you this for your good...I believe you are on an ever increasing road to apostacy. Your former beliefs were much more orthodox than your present beliefs even though your former beliefs weren't all together orthodox. You are scaring me Sanc.

If John 6:47 and Jesus' assurance regarding His promise are not true some how, then can you tell me how?

Before I scare you any further, let's recall what I'd preach, which is the same thing as you. I'm not departing from any scriptures you are that describe the freeness of the gift, nor the Person or the Work by which it is offered. Think one more time. Is not my answer of what content must be understood for salvation, exactly the same as Paul's? Acts 16:29-32

The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household." 32Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house.

Isn't this THE answer to THE question?

You said,

First, nobody will believe in Jesus until they first stop believing in themselves.

And you also said that only the sick will understand and believe -- totally agree. No religion in the world offers something as a gift without a payment due in return. I mean, whoever would believe that salvation could be so simple, huh? Yet there it stands in all its nakedness. It is free to whomever will just believe and receive. We can't make them come to the end of themselves. But for those who are like the jailer, already desperate to seek God's salvation, the answer is unbelievably simple.

[sanctification]

Hi Echo, you said

Your also overlooking "repentance" Isaiah 30:15 "In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it"

The Gospel of John was one of the last books to be written in the canon. It was written for the purpose of evangelism; John 20:31 declares its purpose (and the simple "content that must be believed in order to be saved," as well):

Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Is the apostle's assurance here edging toward apostasy because of its minimal content?

Most importantly the word "believe" is listed some 90-some times in the book and the word "repentance" does not exist a single time in a book whose purpose is to save lost people! The apostle John did however know how to use the word "repentance" and did use it many times, in the Book of Revelation, when the Spirit was writing messages of encouragement and correction to the seven Churches - people who were already saved.

If faith in Jesus = salvation
(A = Z)
Then,
A + B + C = Z still, and
A + B + C + D + E + F = Z
And if you somehow lost B-F and stopped doing them, or had done them incorrectly, does it nullify your Z product?

No, because A always, instantaneously and unconditionally makes Z. Thoughts?

[sanctification]

Hi Echo, your gospel message,

1) We must be perfect to enter heaven (Romans 3:19-20)
2) We are not perfect and therefore don't qualify to enter heaven (Romans 3:19-20)
3) each sin we commit deserves only God's wrath both now and in eternity (Romans 3:19-20)
4) Jesus suffered the wrath and punishment of God that we deserve, in our place. (romans 3:25)
5) Jesus forgave us for all our sins (romans 3:25)
6) he clothed us in his righteousness thus making us perfect forever.(romans 3:21-24)
7) believe it (romans 3:26)

First, agree with you. Romans was a book teaching basic doctrine to those who were already believers. Therefore these are truths about the message they had believed so that they can grow in their walk with Christ, and accurately teach others the truth about salvation (Romans 2 was written concerning teachers and knowing what they are really saying by what they teach).

I'm quoting the NKJV.

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

I bolded this same gospel I'm honing in, on, above. Everything else around "through faith in Jesus Christ" is a description of the means by which and the reasons why it is offered freely, the same sort of picture we can get by reading through the Gospel of John as John testifies of the events of Jesus' life in particular His death and resurrection. The central message that needs to be received for salvation is believe in Jesus for salvation. Why? You'll find that in the scriptures. Which Jesus? The one offering salvation in our orthodox scriptures.

[Echo]

Hi Echo, I really respect your upfront and honest opinion, that is worth so much.

And I respect your upfront and honest opinions as well but I think you need to be more upfront. So much is at stake, we must be honest and upfront.

If John 6:47 and Jesus' assurance regarding His promise are not true some how, then can you tell me how?

Jesus' assurance is true. He says: "He who believes has everlasting life". The question is: "Believes what?"... Even the demons believe and shutter.

Before I scare you any further, let's recall what I'd preach, which is the same thing as you. I'm not departing from any scriptures you are that describe the freeness of the gift, nor the Person or the Work by which it is offered. Think one more time. Is not my answer of what content must be understood for salvation, ...

So you are saying you would preach what I later edited to show you our differences? I am confused. You seem to be saying less than that now. You seem to be saying no repentance is nessesary and all you need to say is "believe". Am I misunderstanding something?

...exactly the same as Paul's? Acts 16:29-32 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household." 32Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house.

Notice in these words: "Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him..." In other words, they instructed them. The important thing to note here is that they believed and were baptized AFTER that instruction was given.

You said,

First, nobody will believe in Jesus until they first stop believing in themselves.

And you also said that only the sick will understand and believe -- totally agree. No religion in the world offers something as a gift without a payment due in return. I mean, whoever would believe that salvation could be so simple, huh? Yet there it stands in all its nakedness. It is free to whomever will just believe and receive. We can't make them come to the end of themselves. But for those who are like the jailer, already desperate to seek God's salvation, the answer is unbelievably simple.

Your right, we can't make them come to the end of themselves, but God does make them come to the end of themselves through the law when we teach about the demands of the law. Then he frees them with the gospel.